STEVE: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the PPI podcast, brought to you by the Purposeful Planning Institute. My name is Steve Legler, and I’m happy to be the guest host for this episode. Our guest is a relatively new member of the PPI community, and I look forward to helping her share some of the work she does with clients with our other members. Ruschelle Khanna is a family enterprise consultant and family therapist based in West Virginia. She helps individuals and enterprises harness the power of emotional intelligence for family and business growth. She’s the author of the forthcoming book, “Inherited Trauma and Family Wealth: A Guide to Heal Relationships and Build a Lasting Legacy.” Let’s welcome Ruschelle to the PPI podcast.

RUSCHELLE: Thank you, Steve. I’m very excited to be here, and I am excited to be a new member of PPI as well. It’s been great so far. So thank you for having me

STEVE: Awesome. All right, Ruschelle, one of the subjects that you specialize in is inherited trauma. So I wanted to start there because it’s not something we hear about or talk about a lot, despite the fact that it’s probably present in more families than we realize.

RUSCHELLE: Yes, so I’ve been a therapist and consultant for over, I think I’m going on 23 years now, and the more I have worked with families and individuals, the more I started to see this highlight of issues that I kind of had a sense that they weren’t their own. And then I started to dive into that a little bit. When you go in that direction, it leads you to work like Family Constellations therapy and then looking at epigenetics and inherited trauma, and things that stories, narratives, that are inherited and passed through families as well.

STEVE: A lot of PPI members work with families, and we come at these families from various professions of origin. Then we always get to a point where we realize there’s more there than we expected in this family. And then we’re all trying to learn to tread better in these areas where we are encountering things that we’re not used to. So I’m hoping you can help shed some light on when people walk into a family and start to sense these things. Are there things we can do, things we should avoid, questions we should ask? How do we probe these things to see the stuff in greater detail like you seem to be able to do?

RUSCHELLE: So I think the first question that advisors should start with for themselves is, what I know about the person, as much information as I know about this individual specifically, does this sound like them, or does this sound like something that is coming from somewhere else? Sometimes clients will come to us, and they are like, “I don’t know why I do certain things.” So one would be, “Gee, I don’t really know why.” Some will make bad financial decisions and business decisions and know that these are not good decisions, but they will be driven to make them anyway, and they also don’t know why. These are kind of like signs of maybe we should look at, maybe this is coming from somewhere else. And that’s when I know a lot of people in PPI are experts at looking at family narratives, and they’re good at slowing down and taking a bit deeper dive into those things. So, what was, tell me a little bit about your grandparents’ experience with business. Just what do you know? Because one of the cool things about inherited trauma, if there’s a cool thing about it, because we inherit good things too, is that one of the cool things about inheriting things from our family, good or bad, is that they can come genetically. There’s new research out that we actually inherit memories, specific memories. This was actually one of the reasons why I was so interested in inherited trauma because I inherited a memory, and I didn’t know. I have a very specific memory that I inherited from my mother that drove a lot of my decision-making as a teen and an adult. So, there’s those inherited pieces, and then there’s the story. That’s what Family Constellations talks about, what’s this narrative that your family is carrying along? For example, this is one of the things that we ask, for example, people who we might be afraid they’re going to hurt themselves. We ask, “Did you have a relative at all who ever hurt themselves? Aunt, uncle, distant?” And one of the reasons is because those stories, even if they didn’t know their great-grandfather who struggled with depression, that story impacts a person in ways that they’re not aware of. So if people can pinpoint business tragedies in their family history, and I know, Steve, you’re probably familiar with some of these stories, right? If you work in this field at all, you see patterns like this. Anyway, you may not be aware of the skills that you’re already using to handle these patterns, right?

STEVE: So you’re talking about like one of the things that we bring as a gift to the clients we work with is a fresh perspective and the ability to ask some curious questions that allow them to do some introspection, right, and start to consider things. And so we invite them with some questions. But you talked about the distinction between the actual memory which we might have inherited and then the narrative that goes with that. I had never thought of it as like these are distinct things. So something happened, and then what are the stories we tell ourselves about it, and how does the family perpetuate those stories? And maybe if they’re being perpetuated in a not-so-useful way, we can help them, I guess, change how they talk about it or think about it.

RUSCHELLE: Yes, so knowing about inherited trauma does a couple of different things. One, it lets people off the hook a little bit and release a little bit of shame around why they have behaved the way they have. It kind of frees them up emotionally to make better decisions. For example, one of the examples I talk about in the book, and it’s actually a common example, is if great-granddad had committed tax fraud, and you didn’t even know that story. Let’s say that you just had a sense that you hated to interact with taxes, and you always avoided paying taxes, and you didn’t know why. Then you found out great-granddad committed tax fraud.

STEVE: Right? So there’s like an aha moment, and like you said, it kind of releases you from, oh wow, there’s an explanation for why I am this way.

RUSCHELLE: Yes, and that doesn’t relieve us of the responsibility of paying our taxes, but it does say that was the unconscious driver. It wasn’t all me. Your behaviors around money and business are never all about you. There’s a lot of that that’s unconscious, and it is helpful to dive into these things because you really don’t know why you’re doing things.

STEVE: People don’t recognize this. Everyone thinks the world started on the day they were born, and everything in their head started with them. And what you’re saying, and what I guess you’re also referring to, is that there’s more and more research that talks about this, that this is actually real, and that we can help turn on the light for some people and show them this.

RUSCHELLE: Yes. So, releasing people of the complete and total responsibility of maybe challenges they’ve had with things like being unmotivated or procrastinating. This all kind of ties into these. I’ve brought three kinds of symptoms today that you can, as an advisor. One of those is when we have clients that seem unmotivated, or they’re procrastinating. So, procrastination is a trauma response. Whether it was inherited trauma or trauma that happened in your lifetime, if you have someone who’s like, “Yeah, I’m going to do that. Yep, I’m going to do that. Yeah, I’m going to do that,” maybe slowing down and talking about what are the barriers. Do you know the barriers? Maybe you need to be referred to a therapist. Do you have procrastination in other parts of your life? Because maybe this is something that needs to be taken care of before you work with me as an advisor.

STEVE: So procrastination, you’re saying, is a trauma response. There’s something that’s blocking people, and if we interact with them in part of their life, if we ask them about other parts of their life, and if it seems to be all over the place, then maybe that’s a symptom. Maybe they should work on that.

RUSCHELLE: Yes, that might be something that’s not like they’re not trying to be difficult. They’re not trying to come in and BS you in a meeting. All the things that we can maybe say that’s not completely fair. The other thing is pacing. So, I’m going to talk generally about trauma. So, inherited trauma and then traumas of our own can create chronic illness later in life. We have a much higher instance of chronic mental health issues, chronic autoimmune disorders, metabolic disorders, heart issues later in life as adults because of trauma, whether it’s inherited or direct. Pacing is a huge problem for people with mental health disorders and chronic health disorders. What I mean by pacing is, like what you can do organizationally, if you don’t have the burden of chronic issues, you’re much better at organizing your daily life, your day-to-day activities, any administrative things that you have to do. People with inherited trauma that results in chronic issues really struggle pacing their day. So, when they come into your office, you might be asking them to do, and maybe they’re really high-functioning people as well. High-functioning people can also struggle with pacing, with energy, and with where to put their energy during the day. So, when you give them tasks, it might be helpful to think about that, like “I’m going to give you three tasks. Let’s come back in two weeks or a month,” and that gives them a little bit of time to work with their pacing. So, asking a lot of questions about their pacing, like “Do you have a lot of trouble meeting deadlines? How do you feel about your productivity in your day? How’s your energy level?” Because all these things are related, and we’re kind of dealing with these issues. If they have ADHD or they have some other mental health diagnosis, that’s a little bit easier to figure out. But sometimes, people are super high-functioning, and they don’t know.d

STEVE: Right? Because we try to take our clients on some kind of a journey and process them through something, whether it’s getting their will done or whatever. And so I think what you’re hinting at is the importance of recalibrating our timeframe and making sure that we check in with our clients to make sure that we’re not going too fast for them. Yes, because some of them, as much as they might want to come on the journey we’re bringing them on, just don’t have the energy, or they don’t have the time, or they’re not able to structure their lives in such a way that goes on with the pace that we’re trying to bring them on. So we need to be sensitive to that, and ask the right questions, and make sure that we’re adjusting our own timelines to suit theirs. I guess that is a big part of this.

RUSCHELLE: Yes, and as professionals, not taking it personally as well. I think when we’re working and people don’t show up for things, it can be like, “What am I doing here?” So if you know that any of these things are a factor—chronic illnesses or a history of difficult experiences—it’s probably not you.

STEVE: Right? And so you’re also pointing out something which I had not really thought about, is that if someone has a trauma early in their life, that can be a seed planted that’s going to come up later and show up in different negative ways. What do we do with that information? Do we help highlight that for people? Or do we? How do we use that?

RUSCHELLE: I know, as a non-therapist and as an advisor, there are certain things that are probably not appropriate to talk about in your sessions. But if you notice that someone is—first of all, if someone has a chronic illness, it is important to know as their advisor, do they have other resources to address that? You should really know and check in whether or not all those other things are covered and encourage them that we’re not going to be able to get done what we need to do if we go back to emotional intelligence. Steve, if somebody’s not emotionally well, they are not going to be able to work on these things, period. So I think that’s a good indicator. If you have any hint about these things, if they’re a heavy procrastinator, if they have problems pacing, if they have cycles of chaos in their life—oh, my goodness. The person’s always having a relationship issue, their family’s always in turmoil—that’s another sign. The cycles of chaos are a big “Hey, what are we doing to address this so that you can have some peace and we can actually sit down and get this stuff done?”

STEVE: Cycles of chaos, what an interesting phrase that I had never really heard of before. But I think anyone who hears that term, like I just did, instantly starts to think of some people they know, and possibly some of their clients, where there always seems to be something going on, and they’re frustrating to deal with sometimes. But I think what you’re pointing to is that if we start to sense that this is what’s going on, we can be more prepared to deal with them. And the other thing you were talking about before is that I always think of myself as a resource for my clients. Being a resource is about what I can do for them, and also, who else can I help refer them to that can also help them in ways that I can’t. So I guess that’s part of it, and PPI being a real collaborative group, I think that’s part of why. What attracts us all to this group is because we can meet other people that can be complimentary to what we’re offering as a resource for our clients.

RUSCHELLE: Absolutely, that makes us such better advisors to know when to make a good referral. Yeah, absolutely.

STEVE: So you talked about procrastination, which I think anyone who works with families gets frustrated with sometimes, where we want the clients to do something, and they say they want to do it, but they’re like, the update just isn’t there. So that’s something to look at for the pacing of getting on the same wavelength and cadence with our clients is another important aspect. And the cycles of chaos, just being aware that there are clients who seem to just be in this loop, and how, what are the ways that we can help them through that? Or is it just us recognizing how we need to deal with them?

RUSCHELLE: So I’m going to give you a quick tip—you don’t have much time with your clients, so I’m going to give you a very quick tip. If you notice somebody in a cycle of chaos, and this comes from hypnosis, so I’m a hypnotherapist as well, and if I’m not actively doing hypnosis on somebody, but I really want to get a message across to them, let’s say that if somebody has cycles of chaos in their life, and I eventually want to convince them to go and have that looked at a little deeper while we’re together, I might say things, and I will say it three times when I meet with them. Three is the key. But I will say something like, “Steve, you really deserve more peace in your life.” And, “Steve, how can we look for more peace in your life so that we can focus on this a little bit more? It’s so nice. It’s so nice to have lots of peace in our life.” And that’s what we’re going for here with this plan that we’re working on and with what I would hope, all your relationships have.

STEVE: That three times, and the first time you say it, it’s like, “Yeah, okay.” And then you say it again, and it starts to sort of sink in. And now, so my question is, is it always peace, or do we sub that out for different subjects? Because peace sounds like it could be a pretty general one.

RUSCHELLE: Well, using cycles of chaos generally, to be more specific, you would use the words of the client. So for example, if the client says, “Everybody always abandons me,” which is another trauma issue, or “Nobody ever shows up for me,” or “My family’s out to lunch,” then I might say, “Well, I know, you know, I’m here for you. There are so many people that are here for you.” So you pick a phrase that you can repeat. “I want your money to show up for you in a big way,” or whatever the phrase is, and you just stick to it and say it at least three times before they leave your office.

STEVE: So as you’re discussing something with them, if you say a word and see that it’s landing well with them, I guess that’s the cue, right, to keep that and then find a way to repeat it again over the next minute or two so that it really lands, so that they start to internalize it and feel it and believe that this is actually true. So you’re helping them realize that their chaos, they might have more control over it and can work towards a specific part that you’re pointing out to them.

RUSCHELLE: Yes, and you pointed out something really important, Steve, which is that you want to watch their body language, and what you’re looking for is relief. So if you notice that something you said to them brought them relief, that’s the word that you’re going to say. If you notice softening, if you notice a big breath, or a yawn, or some sign that they sat back in their chair, well, I’m going to say that three times before they leave.

STEVE: So being attentive to really see what are the specific words that are landing with this person, and then going for the repetition and making sure that you repeat it at least two more times so that it can really land with them and they can embody it and believe it. And I guess that’s part of the service we’re providing to our clients, helping them to see things that they can and should be focusing on that will bring them the relief that you’re talking about.

RUSCHELLE: Yes, that’s a little combination of hypnosis and motivational interviewing. In motivational interviewing, we find the words that resonate with people, that help them get to their goals. That’s the purpose of motivational interviewing. So the example I gave you was a combo.

STEVE: Okay, interesting. So it’s really cool to talk about these relatively simple things that you, based on your decades of experience, can share with people that we can already learn to provide a little bit more value and as a resource to our clients.

RUSCHELLE: Thank you. Yeah, it’s a lot of fun.

STEVE: So just one more question about the book. It’s coming out this fall. What was the experience of writing the book like for you?

RUSCHELLE: It’s been really challenging, Steve, because I hope that it is a little bit of a brief summary of my life’s work, which I love. So it’s been a—sorting through your life’s work is not easy—but I’ve really, really enjoyed it a lot, and I hope that advisors and families can have better relationships with all of it.

STEVE: Well, a lot of people in the PPI community are like that. We devote ourselves to something because of the way that we’ve lived with these situations, and we want to help others do that as well. So we’re getting near the end of our time together. I want to thank you and ask you if you have any final thoughts that you want to share with the PPI community.

RUSCHELLE: I think just the main message today is to practice being really, really present with your clients. And if you notice that there’s something that may not be theirs, then let’s help them to explore that a little bit so that they can find ways to move past it.

STEVE: Excellent. Thank you so much, Ruschelle. Listeners, thanks for joining us. I’m Steve Legler, until next time.